tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2916532122185648082.post940909200008162396..comments2023-03-31T00:42:14.692-07:00Comments on Conversations With Chris Bernard: The Necessity of DoubtMolly Broganhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02864214690848523445noreply@blogger.comBlogger54125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2916532122185648082.post-59209930689036854602010-03-03T13:32:03.522-08:002010-03-03T13:32:03.522-08:00We can never meaningfully answer the questions abo...We can never meaningfully answer the questions about anything in this world, because the reality that I create is different from the one you and the other billions create. This flood of words...we createCOUNT SNEAKYhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14367090847525917503noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2916532122185648082.post-39865906498659129622009-12-18T05:45:18.606-08:002009-12-18T05:45:18.606-08:00The thing with doubt is that the meaning of this w...The thing with doubt is that the meaning of this word covers a spectrum from critical rational analysis (which is good) to obsessive mistrust and skepticism (which is bad), so we can never meaningfully answer the question whether doubt is good or bad. It always depends.Thomasnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2916532122185648082.post-42795342840545165272009-11-22T20:55:44.224-08:002009-11-22T20:55:44.224-08:00Doubt comes from something inherently rooted withi...Doubt comes from something inherently rooted within. Ultimately when you doubt, you doubt yourself in some way. The next step after doubt is proof. There are many things in this universe that we are far from proving. All that lies is speculation and faith.<br /><br />Faith does not necessarily mean religion. Faith is to believe in something without doubt though you have no proof. For someone of Jakenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2916532122185648082.post-66480260171482368252009-11-19T09:25:42.244-08:002009-11-19T09:25:42.244-08:00I woke up thinking about this good dialogue and Ne...I woke up thinking about this good dialogue and Neil's keen observation that doubt and trust may be interrelated. Is it trust that allows us to shed out doubt and make the leap into an integrated from of non dual reality where, as Pat observes, the word just becomes irrelevant to the value of a person? I completely understand Vam's reluctance to discuss the absolute truth, knowing the Molly Broganhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02864214690848523445noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2916532122185648082.post-62645920473463821132009-11-19T09:21:02.556-08:002009-11-19T09:21:02.556-08:00Usually, our own preconceptions and assumptions. ...Usually, our own preconceptions and assumptions. We make assumptions and don't like them challenged, especially if we've become comfortable with them. Like 'Free Will'. People won't give it up, yet space-time doesn't allow for it. So the answer is??? Each person will 'choose' their truth irrespective OF the truth and disregard what they don't like, Patnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2916532122185648082.post-30942672155548995142009-11-19T09:20:41.854-08:002009-11-19T09:20:41.854-08:00I've a strong suspicion that a differential ma...I've a strong suspicion that a differential manifold is structured such that one can perform calculus across its topology. An important factor if one's 3-d manifold is consciousness itself and can then, because of the topology OF that 3-d consciousness, one can differentiate it into an infinite variety of 'awarenesses'. It is just that fact that I hypothesise is behind Patnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2916532122185648082.post-51549295149346713192009-11-19T09:10:29.249-08:002009-11-19T09:10:29.249-08:00The answer, rationally, seems to me to be yes. The...The answer, rationally, seems to me to be yes. The analysis of experience causes one to arrive at the meaning. But there is still a problem. I remember being at a Mountain Air music festival in the Sierra California. There was a guru who came on stage and led a period of meditation for the whole crowd. The, crowd was, well lets say it was significantly left of center, (it is not accidental Justinnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2916532122185648082.post-26891379101120151472009-11-19T09:10:04.627-08:002009-11-19T09:10:04.627-08:00Some meanings are difficult to grasp. I am trying...Some meanings are difficult to grasp. I am trying to grasp the meaning of a differential manifold in topology. One needs to lay a foundation and at each step the process repeats. If you can understand what a set and subset are, then the union and intersection of a set become understandable. If you understand union and intersection, you can understand, what a topology is. In order to Justinnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2916532122185648082.post-43658254175215712262009-11-19T09:07:34.510-08:002009-11-19T09:07:34.510-08:00When you consider the situation rationally there i...When you consider the situation rationally there is some kind of understanding of meaning deficient in the "rational" discussion. What is being asked is simple. "Say what you mean" There is a kind of parsing that is done in rational thought A a kind of clearness that, at the foundation of rationality, is assumed to be available. If it is not simply understandable by me then Justinnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2916532122185648082.post-11507333531493513202009-11-19T08:52:13.971-08:002009-11-19T08:52:13.971-08:00The argument whether doubt is necessary or not -is...The argument whether doubt is necessary or not -is really not worth arguing..<br /><br />One,of the reasons m saying this is because- doubt may arise out of ignorance or out of excess knowledge..Come on guys I think its a personal choice where one wants to stop doubting - see examples below<br /><br />Besides I also believe it is something inherent to the chaos-randomness existing in this akatsukinoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2916532122185648082.post-54599632902154682482009-11-18T13:06:28.699-08:002009-11-18T13:06:28.699-08:00Doubt can move us on, but I suspect we cannot doub...Doubt can move us on, but I suspect we cannot doubt enough at the moment to 'see' what has to change for the new dimensions to unfold and maintain the belief that forms in recognising what is wrong with what others won't let go and we can leave without leaving them. Life is hard and then I will have died! The memoir will remain to continue the fight against the Undead when time Neilnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2916532122185648082.post-26548331335902969202009-11-18T13:01:57.471-08:002009-11-18T13:01:57.471-08:00My interest in the theme of doubt - and I think th...My interest in the theme of doubt - and I think this is in line with the approach Hecht takes in her book - comes from a suspicion of appeals to absolutes. This is, as Neil has recognised, to a large extent , a result of my own biography. I spent many years identifying myself as a believer in God, at the same time trying to square this with another - ultimately stronger - belief in reason and Francisnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2916532122185648082.post-42096685016905547192009-11-18T12:58:06.599-08:002009-11-18T12:58:06.599-08:00Justin, the challenges you have "guessed '...Justin, the challenges you have "guessed ' are true. <br /><br />My first impulse is always to make the attempt. But, what made me hold back was my sense that the ' glass was already full !' <br /><br />Conclusion : It would have to wait for another time.Vamnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2916532122185648082.post-1885252902888789522009-11-18T12:51:32.180-08:002009-11-18T12:51:32.180-08:00What is interesting, perhaps, is why he is not abl...What is interesting, perhaps, is why he is not able. Can you say Vam? <br /><br />My attempt would be "Being is being" but it would fail because of the "Oh that's all" effect and because its meaning is therefore not communicated. <br /><br />There are many religious traditions that impose a similar silence. The old Jewish religions refused to have the name of God mentionedJustinnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2916532122185648082.post-23724059062704118342009-11-18T09:55:21.281-08:002009-11-18T09:55:21.281-08:00We even have to doubt vision in order to understan...We even have to doubt vision in order to understand it. The best example is probably the 'hollow face' illusion - we see this as a real face, but as soon as it moves it blurs and the experience becomes nauseous for some. We now know that the retina only has a two- dimensional image and the brain learns to make the image we witness 3- D. People generally do not believe these optical Neilnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2916532122185648082.post-55095463013436004492009-11-18T09:50:01.674-08:002009-11-18T09:50:01.674-08:00What we doubt is interesting, what we fear is inte...What we doubt is interesting, what we fear is interesting, what we love is interesting...and, as Vam so poignantly tells us, it is all true.Molly Broganhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02864214690848523445noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2916532122185648082.post-39048600654948702122009-11-18T09:49:27.547-08:002009-11-18T09:49:27.547-08:00Francis may know the pain of doubt somewhat more i...Francis may know the pain of doubt somewhat more intimately than I. Like many he has been a great help and might be amused that I have felt some similarity between him and others with a philosophical commitment to reason and revelation as joint grounds for knowing and living (for the revelation, much doubted, is left in the Francis I know from his words). Saadya was an example, creating space Neilnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2916532122185648082.post-47939276975033546772009-11-18T09:49:10.356-08:002009-11-18T09:49:10.356-08:00There are often prudential reasons to be sure of o...There are often prudential reasons to be sure of one's own beliefs. In telling the truth you are very likely to upset someone else. Amongst academics, Dawkins is known as 'The Cardinal' (so sure of his atheism) and Habermas 'The Professor' (as he was so right he insisted on teaching colleagues). In my little backwater, I was 'Mad Einstein'. <br /><br />Doubt is Neilnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2916532122185648082.post-47215573010496333542009-11-18T09:39:49.120-08:002009-11-18T09:39:49.120-08:00Molly, in my tradition, truth equates being, exist...Molly, in my tradition, truth equates being, existence. <br /><br />Even lies and falsehoods are. They being in mind space does not negate their being. Existence manifests equally truly ( really, if I may say so ) in all three spaces : Gross ( Material ),Subtle ( Mental ) and Causal.Vamnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2916532122185648082.post-76236823376413093232009-11-18T09:38:22.066-08:002009-11-18T09:38:22.066-08:00These are good fictional examples of discernment, ...These are good fictional examples of discernment, and maybe even doubt, and how they can suspend our belief long enough for us to allow new possibility into the scenario. But I agree with Vam, that if we are looking for truth rather than looking to doubt, we get further in our discovery. Doubt by definition includes fault finding as well as the emotion of fear and they can bog us down in the Molly Broganhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02864214690848523445noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2916532122185648082.post-65045656930741179562009-11-18T09:35:55.638-08:002009-11-18T09:35:55.638-08:00As i read this I see a statement that answers with...As i read this I see a statement that answers with out saying a thing. Yes there are truths that are beyond winning and losing.. <br /><br />Now I wonder if you can tell me just what your supreme truth is in simple words with out dancing around and side stepping the question you will be surprised just how much simple people like me can grasp.Alannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2916532122185648082.post-81943610109345271842009-11-18T09:34:28.487-08:002009-11-18T09:34:28.487-08:00My position should be well - known by now : There...My position should be well - known by now : There are truths everywhere, even in the fairy stories. There are truths that win the argument at the moment or situation. There are higher truths, beyond the winning and the losing, that we have discovered as worth remaining with on death bed. And, the supreme truth !Vamnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2916532122185648082.post-33825586628750595522009-11-18T09:33:22.109-08:002009-11-18T09:33:22.109-08:00There's a distinction between ordinary incredu...There's a distinction between ordinary incredulity and philosophical doubt. “The Truman Show” and “The Matrix” might help a bit here. In 'Truman' a character is placed, without his knowledge, in a contrived environment so that his “life” can be broadcast on television. He begins to wonder whether the world surrounding him is, in fact, what it appears to be. Some events seem to Neilnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2916532122185648082.post-83599564680761020802009-11-18T09:33:03.084-08:002009-11-18T09:33:03.084-08:00I'd be serious about the cursing there are que...I'd be serious about the cursing there are questions about how we leave one paradigm behind (at least for the time being and for those of us who can). The doubting in thought is difficult enough, but working in doubt is very wearing. There are always questions as to whether one works in doubt as a martyr or a more pragmatic and strategic sense. My current sense of this is that we are at aNeilnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2916532122185648082.post-37894546116450980842009-11-16T08:53:30.809-08:002009-11-16T08:53:30.809-08:00I think you understand, Molly, that I'm not ar...I think you understand, Molly, that I'm not arguing in favour of laissez-faire reletavism here. There are better and worse answers to most things. It is important for us to stand up for our principles and defend them against other positions we judge to be less convincing. Yet we should be careful of certainties. There is, I hope, growth in wisdom. And there are enough situations in life Francisnoreply@blogger.com