Question: What is actually evolving?
Answer: The quality and quantity of relationships between people, assuming the form of shared meanings, agreements, relationships and groups of relationships. The cultural domain is inter-subjective, because it exists between subjects, yet is often not objectively identifiable. But the fact that these shared spaces of meaning are not objectively identifiable does not hinder us from experiencing them as being real. As such, the subjective world includes not only individual consciousness but the inter-subjective domain of relationships as well, making the interior universe much more substantial. These relationships are real, yet they exist in the internal universe.
What do YOU think?
For more: http://www.i-awake.net/2010/08/spiral-dynamics-introduction.html
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24 comments:
n my opinion, the most important fact for the evolvement of humanity is the negative entropy, some call it syntropy or the best name for it is the life.
It is the energy opposite to the entropy which has been accepted by the main stream science because with our plain eyes we can see, we can justify the decay of the material world.
Problem is that in the time of discovery or better to say of formulation of the second law of thermodynamics by Sadi Carnot in 1824 it was a period when science divorced strictly from any metaphysical influences. In that time back they believed so little in anything outside humans so they so much simplified the world, reducing it to the easy measurable variables like temperature, pressure, and chemical potential of the system. They fully neglected the driving force number one in the cosmos; they neglected the life, the force so obvious and in the same time so difficult to formulate and measure.
This driving force is the main energy, the main idea source for the human evolvement. This driving force has been neglected by Darwin, too, but his mistake is very easily explainable and understandable.
How much your, or Eric Thompson statement " All aspects of human civilization—language, art, aesthetics, technology, architecture, organizations, governments—depend upon essential human relationships for their evolution and expression." is correct that is another matter.
I think all these above mentioned evolvement of the system humans live in are byproducts of life evolvement. Life is evolving and the new life is creating new place for the further development. Of course, it is difficult to prove what is the first; chicken or the egg.
However, in spite to all of these changes we are noticing within just one century, our brain is still the same, yes, processing many more information, but still very, very much limited, slow in the analysis of our surrounding, slow in every sense.
We are witnessing the big changes in our lifetimes, but what they really mean for the human evolution is impossible to say.
I think that awareness about self and others has evolved thanks to the evolution of communication. In the ocean of information that one can reach daily today, there is a nice number of those that contribute to the development of awareness about the inner and outer world. And that is the point from which many changes are possible that further make other evolving possible, cultural, scientific, philosophical, artistic...
It's fun to dive into these things.
We climb on concepts, using them to point us towards the unknown. Who dares to go? You first? No you first. Let him go first. And there goes.
Communication, yes, but western people have also developped some guts to make the jump. Redevelloped maybe, but thanks to that jump into the dark we learn as fast as we do now. Space. We dissolve in space, only by letting go. But who goes first, and returns alive? Inspires the others to do the same.
It's happened, it's still happening, and in space we find love. For each other too, because no one can be caught in his own internal space. So we find freedom, so we find tolerance. We are safe within, can leave ourselves, but go back whenever there's a need. The guts to leave ourselves again. Throw us out there, and be vulnerable, but immortal.
And as inner and outer need each other, they balance us in and out, there where we surrender.
Autumn ahead. Let's share again
Are human beings capable of ultimate objecivity in anything? Perhaps on tiny wee peep holes of reality but not seemingly to approach a god-like perspective of reality.
There was a time kind of between the old testament "days" and before Yeshua, before the uttter severe Patriarchal dominance that characterises Judaism and was pervasive throughout all the surrounding major cultures, ...a time before this when there was a "breather" of fresh air with matriarchal inclined societies where women, children, and minorities now experience and possess more freedoms than in any time in written history Male Judaist et al leaders put paid to all that and even wrote out the divine-Mother principle from "her" "position" to a subordinatiing role and even elminating Daath from the Sephira by intellectual gymnastics which is what people will do to win and justify their positioning and control over 'things" and people!
Human kind is not always and necessarily on a track of ascendency of evolution. There have been endless great backward falls and de-volutions!
look at Greece today, and the "Roman Empire" ...look at all empires ...demonstrations of the relentless aquisitorial nature of humanity and the the loss of it!
We tend to think (objectively / subjectively?) that we are at some kind of pinnacle of all things. Every culture holding its self up for such admiration of its self that it is at the pinacle.
Perhaps the only objective truth is that we have been here doing all this before!
Those physical freedoms of which there are now more of than at any other time in history for those social groups Molly identities is true of course. But the challenges to real freedom are still to be fully explored & won by humanity. The disparity and lag between social and technological evolution continues to plague us as a species. Due to technology we are isolating and cocooning more than ever, neighbors often do not know one another. Children play less often than in the past with TV, video games & the internet. People are reading less and with that critical thinking diminishes. We are retreating into a primal technological womb that undermines freedom. The most difficult challenge before us is the building of community & interdependence. Politically humans will sacrifice freedom for security from threats real & imagined. Even among theosophists community eludes us all too often and attempts at building community is often littered with egos, a sense of entitlement, personal agendas and a refusal to sacrifice for the greater good.
"...making the interior universe much more substantial" is not indicative of spiritual growth but of regressing to a form of magical thinking and fulfilling that 'new age' lie foisted upon us of 'creating our own reality'. Reality is a collaborative effort. I am not advocating a return to some Luddite inspired world view, but rather communities of people truly free to perform deeds for the good of all and the building of a real civil society.
I believe that subjective internal relationships need a very broad basis of interpretation. One simply cannot see the filters that one has in one's life, and possibly not the lenses in the being(s) who is on other side the relationship and therefore "experience interpretation" may be erroneous if all possibilities are not considered.
How do we even know what all possibilities are?
I also think its very sticky stuff... :)
I like your comment Mark ...esp. "Even among theosophists community eludes us ..."
But one comment surprised me, your comment being, "...fulfilling that 'new age' lie foisted upon us of 'creating our own reality'."
These comments surprise me very much since they fly in the face of what many would accept as being of "the wisdom tradition".
Is it not as widespread known as some may assume that the "new age" was spawned from "new age" (1875) Theosophy?
Is it that people do not know basic theosophy (theo-sophia tradition)? Or is it that people know it but wish to fly in the face of it? ...to disagree with it?
The latter is absolutely fine, ...in fact to do so is a TS given right. A TS member does not have to agree with anything!. This right was made clear in 1924:
http://sophia-nz.ning.com/forum/topics/freedom-of-thought-ts-general
There are only 3 requirements of a "theosophist" (TS-member) being to agree with the 3 objects and to uphold the "two freedoms".
But to offer a disagreement with traditional wisdom must also allow the offering of an alternate view, that supports original tenets of theo-sophia, if there is one. (otherwise there would not be discussion forums!)
I put a reply to Scott's point of view here....
http://theosophical.ning.com/forum/topics/the-rebel-in-you?commentI...
WRT (with respect to) Mark's view that I believe asserts that we do not create our own reality, I am afraid that most things I have observed about human behaviour, ON A DAILY BASIS is a jig-saw piece in the universe that creates one's own reality. Once one's eyes are opened there is no not seeing of this anymore!
It is the lower ego that will not, cannot ,does not want to, accept the position of the life it has created for its self, THAT IT IS RESPONSIBLE. That is a terrifyingly, abhorently, unacceptable thing to admit to a self.
This is also interelated with the theosophia concept of "Unity" that ABSOLUTELY everything is related, connected, part of a "fabric" that underlies infinity (the universe).
This is what Yoga is (means), ie "to unite" or "union". Guess what then is the object of Yoga to unite with?
Before we are materially born we enter a pact on what we are to achieve or learn in this life. It could be a life of misery, or the life of Bill Gates! ...it could be as a sick child who lives one month ...or you live 110 years.
Is this such an unacceptable "belief" ? I guess if one wants to argue with the justice of living one month or being born in a destitute nation. But this is a failure of the understanding of unity and what we are here for (a holiday camp, benign, easy, life for everybody?) ...the relationship is much larger than the single individual raging about the injustices of their life with God. The example of the child dieing early was a pact before life with the parents and wider community to learn about life and to GROW (to evolve = theosophy!) through the loss of a child. The ripples in the pool of life have far far greater implications than we can really comprehend!
As for evolution, the definition I'm operating on is that it occurs when previously independent holons join together into a discrete system. Moving from single cells to multiple is evolution, and so is the incorporation of black and white American music to create Rock 'n' Roll. In that sense, yes, I believe evolution is accountable for the joining of demographic holons into larger national and human systems.
The concept of the self creating its own reality has been around since the dawn of philosophy rooted in what we now call Idealism, it was commandeered by the New Thought movement of Phineas Quimby & his various descendants in the 19th century. This offspring includes Mary Baker Eddy, Ernest Holmes, Spiritualism, Religious Science & the Unity church among others. In our time the channeled material from 'Seth' via Jane Roberts espousing this view took off like wildfire in the occult/new age community and has become accepted as a tenet of Occultism & the Ancient Wisdom. Of which it is decidedly not!
The Ancient wisdom clearly postulates the existence of a spiritual hierarchy of which humanity occupies that position between the elemental devas and the gods- this is the collaborative effort which weaves the fabric of that interrelated absolute unity of which you speak. Regarding your reference & definition of yoga- a careful reading of the 'Crest Jewel of Discrimination' by Sri Sankaracharya clearly indicates the goal of yoga is an integrative psychological process within the practitioner and any expectation to link the self with the 'cosmic' is a by-product and not the intended goal.
As to the Theosophical view of the after death process we must keep several things in mind- it's cursed with the Victorian need for mind numbing detail that probably both under & over reports the process, it was gleaned from a potpourri of Buddhist, Tibetan and Vedic sources and then the corrupt disorganized thinking of Leadbeater & cronies was hammered into this metaphysical hodgepodge. All such suggested speculation of the after death process is exactly that- suggestions based on human understanding. The wisest thing I've ever heard about what happens to us was told to me by a child at the Ozark Theosophical some years ago- "Do your dharma, reap your karma, go to heaven and then come back for another chance." This is as or more helpful than all the headache inducing tables & charts one can mentally digest.
Phew!
trying to get a handle here on what you are saying.
Paragraph 1:
The concept of the self creating its own reality has been around since the dawn of philosophy rooted in what we now call Idealism, ...and then... 'Seth' via Jane Roberts ...has become accepted as a tenet of Occultism & the Ancient Wisdom. Of which it is decidedly not!
I have not read 'Jane Roberts" stuff, but I take it that you disagree strongly with her writings and perhaps consider the phenomenon of "Seth" as fake, therefore supporting a view of self-created reality as a "new age lie"? I am a little confused: If the new agers say our reality is self-created it is a lie, but the statements from ancient philosophy stating same, ...it is an acceptable truth?
Self-creating one's own reality is intrinsically about the principles of unity, karma, dharma, and reincarnation. ...are these principles unacceptable to you also?
Para 2:
Sankaracharya ... to link the self with the 'cosmic' is a by-product and not the intended goal.
Does he really say this? Surprises me. When one has such an experience it is realised as one of the greatest "prizes" to one's life with usually immense consequential benefits. Siddhis ("gifts") often come after such experience! People's such experiences have been catalogued in Cohen & Phipps' book "The Common Experience: Signposts on the Path to Enlightenment" 1979, 1992 Quest Books (your own TS publishing house!)
Para 3:
I accept that "Victorian" writers aren't that easy a read, but to me that is just somewaht a test for perseverance for the genuine student. Perhaps "The Masters" planned it that way as an aspect of the esoteric path? I certainly do not advocate swallowing it all without question, but if one can comprehend the intellects, talents, and super-natural (beyond the usual) events these people were involved in, along with the immense WORK they did, they could be considered to be 2 to 3 deviations to the right along the nornal distribution curve (Stats!). ...and then weigh that up against the intellects, talents, productivity in TS membership today, I personally feel we could be more cautious or thoughtful WRT throwing out what amounts to the shoulders of what TS of today stands on.
I did the table as a miniscule effort in contributionof work to elucidate what might be glazed over by the 2010 mind of today reading Victorian text. It is a miniscule effort in building on what has been before. I personally believe that more effort could be shown by TS members of today to create a clarity out of the literature of the past for the "minds" of today rather than take an attitude of "writing-off" what has been and perpetuating a view of "corrupt disorganised thinking" and "metaphysical hodgepodge".
The call I make here in response, is that if one does take your view as correct, then how about doing some work to create "clear organised thinking" and "metaphysical consistency" instead of just putting a flame-thrower to it all.
Every thing starts with friction the pleasant present is due to the un-pleasant friction way back..but still in todays pleasant scenario there is haze and clouds blocking the experience of true pleasure from the pleasant present.Evolution is a process which will happen, understanding a process in which we are a part of is simple as well as cumbersome.The process becomes simpler when we accept the situation,the surrounding our own-self and act in accordance with fundamental principles of Goodness.Cumbersome, when things are completely out of balance the situation,surrounding and one own self.
Surroundings can be changed by individuals to get themselves in to right situation but than currently the situation itself is a volatile object and hence with dependency on situation things go for a toss.The only thing in hand is working on own self.If an individual is solemnly True to this cause than its a big task cause working on own self is like working with an entire universe :)
This is what we are here for,yes we have helped one another by various aspect of science,technology,art,literature & philosophy,with so much still there is an ode towards perfection,a part of own self is always seeking.When an individual interacts with his/her fellow beings,things are bound to happen pleasant or un-pleasant some times we are affected some time we are not.Most of the time we are affected,getting one self in to balance and restoration is important for our best act to put forward.
All in all Evolution will sincerely start happening when we all come together to a platform where in the harmony and balance is an integral part of ones personality viz., the time taken for restoration and balance tends to zero and than what remains is the act or work to do and this work would be the true essence of evolution.
These are beautiful and far reaching ideas that you shared, Samir
From my perspective, evolution and life are inseparable. As long as there is life, there is also evolution.
The pleasantness of the experience is something human's created, by hard work and a lot of sacrifice.
The assumption that the balance must lead to zero is unfounded. The universe is, and as thus, it is not zero.
Hi Nabil, I like Samir's comment very much too.! I sense he is much a practical theosophist cf the over intellectualising cosmologist type!
I think what he was saying about "zero" refers only to the time taken to restore balance in oneself.
The ultimate objective for one's own self is the ability for rapid restoration of equilibrium (harmony)
For example say on the way to work and an important meeting you have a car accident and road rage results from the other driver, they threaten to assault you etc. When finally getting to the meeting so called "normal" people maybe too shaken to function properly if at all at the meeting. The advanced person will be able to adjust themselves in almost no time (zero time) to be able to function perfectly at the meeting!
That was my take. Maybe I'm shooting off on my own tangent what Samir said? Hope Samir comes back on to elaborate.
Anyway I learnt what I think he is saying from Taoist QiGong.
Much superior health and well-being comes from flattening out ones own sine wave from a jagged peak and trough to a subtle ocean like wave to match the harmony of the universe! I know this to be truth as I was very ill for severel years once!
You are right.. the restoration of harmony within one self from chaotic situation if quicker or faster or in spur of a second than what remains would be the real oneself in mode of peace and the act hence after would be within the jurisdiction of peace.Bro, you did a nice job with an example,Thanks for that :)
We all are a part of this ever evolving universe and the perfect evolution of the universe happens with the parts of it playing its part well.It depends on us as a part,under given circumstances to decide and play a role towards positive ahead.Just want to keep process simpler and focus on correcting things in hand.This understanding can indeed help in a great evolving future.
I would love to study Taoist QiGong as have not read about it,thanks yet again Bro. for giving this insight.
I find Samir that as I am getting older "I count my lucky stars" more!
I had the great fortune to meet a Mr John Freear an Englishman (ie from England!) ;-) whose parents lived for many years in China before the Cultural Revolution. For some reason the local monks taught them very advanced Taoism (QiGong) which was really quite forbidden. But, the reason why can possibly be discerned when realised that these "schools" were overrun and outlawed.on the event of the revolution, thus the monks had preserved their teachings likely having prophesied events. From the age of 8 John was taught what possibly no "so called" western chlid had learnt since Yeshua the Nazarene was a child! John did not go on to profess like Yeshua as a saintly master, he became a lawyer and Karate expert! ...but his "difference" was there deep down that most did not know. I benefitted from him with a great alteration to my life from what he hid from most of the "western" world ! ...although he even had to be careful with what he revealed visiting China in recent years! ...in a real sense I owe him the gratitude of saving my life!
What can be found in Taoism can be found in Indian, Egyptian descended and most other traditions. I guess in studying one tradition cf another each one goes to some specific things a bit quicker which defines each, but they all have everything there! ...as you no doubt know from your TS studies!
In my opinion, the most important fact for the evolvement of humanity is the negative entropy, some call it syntropy or the best name for it is the life.
It is the energy opposite to the entropy which has been accepted by the main stream science because with our plain eyes we can see, we can justify the decay of the material world.
Problem is that in the time of discovery or better to say of formulation of the second law of thermodynamics by Sadi Carnot in 1824 it was a period when science divorced strictly from any metaphysical influences. In that time back they believed so little in anything outside humans so they so much simplified the world, reducing it to the easy measurable variables like temperature, pressure, and chemical potential of the system. They fully neglected the driving force number one in the cosmos; they neglected the life, the force so obvious and in the same time so difficult to formulate and measure.
This driving force is the main energy, the main idea source for the human evolvement. This driving force has been neglected by Darwin, too, but his mistake is very easily explainable and understandable.
How much your, or Eric Thompson statement " All aspects of human civilization—language, art, aesthetics, technology, architecture, organizations, governments—depend upon essential human relationships for their evolution and expression." is correct that is another matter.
I think all these above mentioned evolvement of the system humans live in are byproducts of life evolvement. Life is evolving and the new life is creating new place for the further development. Of course, it is difficult to prove what is the first; chicken or the egg.
However, in spite to all of these changes we are noticing within just one century, our brain is still the same, yes, processing many more information, but still very, very much limited, slow in the analysis of our surrounding, slow in every sense.
We are witnessing the big changes in our lifetimes, but what they really mean for the human evolution is impossible to say.
Life is a lot more subtle than what you read in the newspapers and see on television. How many people have never read or seen one? Would you consider american troups a threat to them?
One thing I don't accept, Alija, is that it you say is by encountering my optimism that you got the idea to put some data about America on this beautiful website. It is not. You put these data on this website because doing that is in your system. It does not matter which outside factor triggers that, fact is that you did it.
I agree that we can not say what the changes mean for evolution, though. Yet we can observe the changes. In ourselves and in others. Here and now. Share them. That way, we create a base for trust and understanding of the subject of inner vision, and the control of inner traveling.
I'm listening to Annie Lennox. She sings: dieing is easy, it's living that scares me. I think that is it exactly.
All I do I do it because of my mind. My mind my thoughts which I can not control. They are outside of my/our control.
USA is not my preoccupation for very long time. I do not read newspaper, I do not watch TV, but it happened I saw the interview, 20 sec, with the new UK prime minister and what he said was that UK is going to withdraw their troops from Afghanistan.
After Mexican gulf "accident" I do not see any chance he is going to keep his promise.
I got an insight by talking to you here;
the more we withdraw from the daily life, from the conditioning media, the better we see what is happening outside.
Mere an other point of view.
I understand Alija´s thoughts and most of them are true. But, when I read Gilles answer about worries and what they bring to us," I also realize that the energy I put in that is lost.", I felt it as my approach to this. If we cannot change things, warring about them is really only lost of energy. If we are able to undertake anything to make changes, that would be something. If not...
I have noticed this phenomenon myself - a sense of evolution, intra-generation. Consider that for the past 200 years each generation of human life has been exponentially more different from the previous. A hundred years ago most people were farmer and most did not have electricity. 50 years ago many people had electricity but few had autos. 20 years ago almost everyone had electricity but almost no one had internet. Today, most people have all of the above (assuming that you live in a modernized country) and even if you live in a "third world country" chances are that you have access to modern amenities.
The amount of information that can be shared today is unprecedented. "Unprecedented" is too light of a word. Consider just what email does for you. Consider what PHP technology does for this forum. Consider what wi-fi does for your coffee bar. Consider what mobile internet does for your cell-phone.
Human evolution is motivated by need - modern people need to adapt and assimilate new information at an extreme rate. The more aware you become of the world as a whole, the more connected you feel.
It only stands to reason that, as more people become aware, the more the world changes.
Let us outline a few things which should change (or have been changing):
1) awareness of extremist religious viewpoints (stoning women for adultery, for example)
2) child prostitution and sexual trafficking
3) Genocide and ethnic cleansing (think blood diamonds)
You see - with the internet and cell phone cameras, suddenly everyone comes under the scrutiny of the world at large. Just because your culture happens to find rape acceptable under certain circumstances (tournante) does not mean that this tradition makes sense. Despite the attitude of "you should respect cultural values" this particular cultural value draws such disdain and recrimination that international pressure is brought against countries which support these practices.
When has this happened before?
NEVER.
When could this have happened before?
NEVER.
The fact of the matter is that we are living in the most important period of human development. As many point out, we are at a sort of critical mass. Humans are more powerful and more capable than ever before. This is a brave new world and the speed of communication is driving society forward.
A few things that will happen tomorrow: researchers will publish papers that change science. people will voice opinions about politicians which are viewable by all human beings. Data will be copied from edge of the globe to the other and back again (many times over)
We have learned to take these things for granted, but consider that humans have only just evolved!
Do you believe this technology development is bringing more freedom to the man or it serves for better control of the man? Does a man today has more freedom, is happier than he was 30 year back? Is the brain washing today less present or more?
I think, my answers to all these questions would be negative. Humanity is evolving in a single power controlling system and this doesn't work for long in this world of dualities.
System without opposition is not sane. This system which was always insane accepted double moral, double criteria depending on which side one is.
Today's man is accepting these anomalies without objection. Today's man is much more obedient than he was just a few decades back; not because he is more spiritual now, but because he is much more scared for his existence than ever.
Just for your information, I do not care who is creating this single power controlling system, and I am very curious to hear your answers.
Science is advancing, but science is darkness, still thinking in a Darwin's and Newton's way.
We need the WIN21 help in order to understand the most basic principles of life and we have WIN7 at disposition with perspective never reaching above WIN10.
However, I like very much your optimism, but I am curious to know are we going to search God using space shuttle or in some other secrete places.
Molly, in response to your original post, it is my experience that all manifested form, thought, and activity is a reflection of inner energetic activity. We tend to think that we can have some effect on that inner energy process by directing our outer processes, but that is a little misleading. What we can do is stop or disrupt our outer processes. This breaks the patterns that prevent that inner energy from manifesting harmony here. The more we do this, the more we experience harmony, since that inner energy/self is aligned with the universal Intent.
Evolution? Exists in the mind only. In my "mental" perspective I have to admit. If I translate it from my feeling perspective, I'd call it change. Just to get rid of the progress nuance. Who is talking about progress? A human? God? A combination of the two? I don't know.
Ideas are harmless. It is the importance we give to the idea that makes it harmful for our own ... (fill in the blank). And since I left you to fill in the blank, but am still the one who writes this, here are some suggestions in the order that they come up: spirit, mind, being, thought, emotions, feeling, health, but I do invite you to feel absolutely free to come up with different worlds or words.
For a second there, I had lost the whole sense of trying to destroy thought. Yes you read that well. Destroy. There is a violent nature deep inside this apparently peaceful guy. O no you guys do know me as rather violent. I forgot or did not, but just wanted to mention I was or am peaceful. My reasoning is not not going anywhere, is it? But is there anywhere to go? I don't know, do you?
Ok, considering the fact that people are nowadays talking about vibrations and frequencies; in a sense that they did not 30 years ago, makes me wonder. Are we as a species evolving? I guess so, but honestly, I am not sure. What I am sure about, is that life is mindboggling to the extend that you sometimes should just grow with the flow.
I can appreciate the point that Gilles makes that, in our purest state, we are there, evolution may seem nil. But I think, in an infinite universe, there is always more. My individual interior universe evolves as I can align my thoughts and emotions into harmony with life as I experience it. As an individual, there is MUCH more of me to evolve to get there, and I have seen over time how my doubts and fears set me back and bring disharmony to my experience. I very much appreciate seta's observations on the rapidly evolving world around us as an indication of the rapidly evolving interior universe. I too, am optimistic that such ethical transparency as technology is bringing about will create the needed collective shift.
An artist friend left this in my email box for me this morning:
It`s exhilarating to be alive in a time of awakening consciousness; it can also be confusing, disorienting, and painful. Ahmed Ghneim
If there is always a greater harmony, we are always aligning to it. Can we acclimate to the confusion, disorientation and pain this recovery might cause? It may be a matter as seeing health and healing as one in the same, the state of perfection.
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